Discussion:
Rights. Where do they come from
(too old to reply)
buckeye
2008-09-18 09:56:05 UTC
Permalink
http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2006-summer/religion-vs-free-speech.asp
[excerpt]

Religion vs. Free Speech

Craig Biddle

In the midst of the Cartoon Jihad, much has been said in defense of the
right to free speech, especially by those on the religious right (such as
Jeff Jacoby and Michelle Malkin). This effort is remarkable because, on the
premises of religion, the Islamic militants are correct: There is no right
to free speech.

Rights are principles specifying the kinds of actions that a person should
be able to take. The right to free speech, if it exists, is the prerogative
to express one’s ideas, whether in spoken, written, or artistic
form—regardless of what anyone else thinks, believes, or feels about those
ideas. If there is no right to “offend God,” as the Islamic militants
insist, then there is no right to free speech. And whether or not we have
the right to “offend God” depends on the source and nature of rights.

Where do rights come from? Do they come from the natural world or from a
supernatural dimension? And how do we know that we have them? Are rights
rationally understandable facts of reality or mystically intuited articles
of faith? The answers one gives to these questions determine how one holds
the concept of “rights” in one’s mind, how one uses the concept in
practice, and whether or not one is able intellectually to defend rights
when they are attacked.

On the religious worldview, quoting Alan Keyes: “Our rights come from the
will of God.”1 President George W. Bush concurs: “We received our rights
from God.”2 Newt Gingrich challenges anyone to cite another source for
rights: “If you are not endowed by your Creator with certain inalienable
rights where do they come from?”3 In other words: If there is no God, there
are no rights.

This idea is not only wrong; it is exactly backward. The fact is that if
there were a God (which there is not), there would be no rights—and as long
as people believe that rights come from God, they will be unable to
understand rights or to properly defend them. . .
[end excerpt]

***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:

The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm

American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm

The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html

[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]

HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/

***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote

"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"

That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.

It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.

*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
ZerkonX
2008-09-18 12:34:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by buckeye
This idea is not only wrong; it is exactly backward. The fact is that if
there were a God (which there is not), there would be no rights—and as
long as people believe that rights come from God, they will be unable to
understand rights or to properly defend them. . .
"Nature and Nature's God..." followed by "endowed by their Creator with
certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the
pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights...."

..leaves a lot of room open for both a god and nature, either as
completely separate or as a combination but neither voids the other.

I see only wisdom in this. First it places rights outside of a dependency
on state which is only to secure not create or give. They are personal,
individual and the product of human's being.

Now, the belief in how or why humans are born or created is, or should
be, another issue entirely.

So with this guy with his...
Post by buckeye
The fact is that if there were a God (which there is not), there would
be no rights..."
his position is absolute in the negation of god. This is as intolerant,
narrow-minded and bigoted as those he condemns and the "if there were"
says nothing.

He infers that he is in favor of 'free speech' because he attacks those
who are, in his opinion, opposed to it. Like some one attacking racism
implying that they are above all that. This hypocritical trick or self-
delusion has been played out as far as I am concerned others may fall for
it but that's their decision.

I would lay dollars to donuts there are any number of beliefs Craig
Biddle would not tolerate as speech. "God" being only one of the very few.
N***@Click.com
2008-09-18 12:55:32 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 05:56:05 -0400, buckeye
Post by buckeye
Rights are principles specifying the kinds of actions that a person should
be able to take
Operative would "Should".
Wide Eyed in Wonder
2008-09-18 14:01:51 UTC
Permalink
I usually ignore your posts, but this one was screaming out for a
response...
Post by buckeye
Where do rights come from? Do they come from the natural world or from a
supernatural dimension? And how do we know that we have them? Are rights
rationally understandable facts of reality or mystically intuited articles
of faith? The answers one gives to these questions determine how one holds
the concept of “rights” in one’s mind, how one uses the concept in
practice, and whether or not one is able intellectually to defend rights
when they are attacked.
On the religious worldview, quoting Alan Keyes: “Our rights come from the
will of God.”1 President George W. Bush concurs: “We received our rights
from God.”2 Newt Gingrich challenges anyone to cite another source for
rights: “If you are not endowed by your Creator with certain inalienable
rights where do they come from?”3 In other words: If there is no God, there
are no rights.
This idea is not only wrong; it is exactly backward. The fact is that if
there were a God (which there is not), there would be no rights—and as long
as people believe that rights come from God, they will be unable to
understand rights or to properly defend them. . .
[end excerpt]
First, to your point....

"And yet the same revolutionary beliefs for which our forebears fought
are still at issue around the globe--the belief that the rights of man
come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God."
- John F Kennedy in 1961

Does the Democrat party still agree with JFK on the origin of rights
or not?

Next, a little addition....

Will mankind be judged by the law of God or the law of man? Well, can
a criminal stand up in their trial, reject the law over them, and
demand to be judged by their own justifications? That has never
happened (even Saddam Hussein's objections didn't work). How do we
expect that God will judge us by our justifications, instead of His
law?

Proverbs 21:2 "Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the
LORD pondereth the hearts."

Kenneth Clifton
www.2008jesus.com
Cary Kittrell
2008-09-18 14:38:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wide Eyed in Wonder
I usually ignore your posts, but this one was screaming out for a
response...
Post by buckeye
Where do rights come from? Do they come from the natural world or from a
supernatural dimension? And how do we know that we have them? Are rights
rationally understandable facts of reality or mystically intuited article=
s
Post by buckeye
of faith? The answers one gives to these questions determine how one hold=
s
Post by buckeye
the concept of =93rights=94 in one=92s mind, how one uses the concept in
practice, and whether or not one is able intellectually to defend rights
when they are attacked.
On the religious worldview, quoting Alan Keyes: =93Our rights come from t=
he
Post by buckeye
will of God.=941 President George W. Bush concurs: =93We received our rig=
hts
Post by buckeye
from God.=942 Newt Gingrich challenges anyone to cite another source for
rights: =93If you are not endowed by your Creator with certain inalienabl=
e
Post by buckeye
rights where do they come from?=943 In other words: If there is no God, t=
here
Post by buckeye
are no rights.
This idea is not only wrong; it is exactly backward. The fact is that if
there were a God (which there is not), there would be no rights=97and as =
long
Post by buckeye
as people believe that rights come from God, they will be unable to
understand rights or to properly defend them. . .
[end excerpt]
First, to your point....
"And yet the same revolutionary beliefs for which our forebears fought
are still at issue around the globe--the belief that the rights of man
come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God."
- John F Kennedy in 1961
"Can I help you with that button, Marilyn?"

-- John F Kennedy, multiple occasions

-- cary
Post by Wide Eyed in Wonder
Does the Democrat party still agree with JFK on the origin of rights
or not?
Next, a little addition....
Will mankind be judged by the law of God or the law of man? Well, can
a criminal stand up in their trial, reject the law over them, and
demand to be judged by their own justifications? That has never
happened (even Saddam Hussein's objections didn't work). How do we
expect that God will judge us by our justifications, instead of His
law?
Proverbs 21:2 "Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the
LORD pondereth the hearts."
Kenneth Clifton
www.2008jesus.com
N***@Click.com
2008-09-18 16:25:20 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 07:01:51 -0700 (PDT), Wide Eyed in
Post by Wide Eyed in Wonder
I usually ignore your posts, but this one was screaming out for a
response...
Post by buckeye
Where do rights come from? Do they come from the natural world or from a
supernatural dimension? And how do we know that we have them? Are rights
rationally understandable facts of reality or mystically intuited articles
of faith? The answers one gives to these questions determine how one holds
the concept of “rights” in one’s mind, how one uses the concept in
practice, and whether or not one is able intellectually to defend rights
when they are attacked.
On the religious worldview, quoting Alan Keyes: “Our rights come from the
will of God.”1 President George W. Bush concurs: “We received our rights
from God.”2 Newt Gingrich challenges anyone to cite another source for
rights: “If you are not endowed by your Creator with certain inalienable
rights where do they come from?”3 In other words: If there is no God, there
are no rights.
This idea is not only wrong; it is exactly backward. The fact is that if
there were a God (which there is not), there would be no rights—and as long
as people believe that rights come from God, they will be unable to
understand rights or to properly defend them. . .
[end excerpt]
First, to your point....
"And yet the same revolutionary beliefs for which our forebears fought
are still at issue around the globe--the belief that the rights of man
come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God."
- John F Kennedy in 1961
Does the Democrat party still agree with JFK on the origin of rights
or not?
Rights are not absolute
Post by Wide Eyed in Wonder
Next, a little addition....
Will mankind be judged by the law of God or the law of man?
Render unto Ceasar those things which are Ceasars.

Human law is the domain of mortals
Post by Wide Eyed in Wonder
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"When Moses told the children of Israel that he
received the two tables of the commandments from the
hands of God, they were not obliged to believe him,
because they had no other authority for it that his
telling them so."

"The "commandments" carry no internal evidence of
divinity within them; they carry some good moral
precepts, such as any man qualified to be a law-giver,
or a legislator, could produce himself, without having
to recourse to supernatural intervention"

Thomas Paine,--------- Founder
Cary Kittrell
2008-09-18 17:00:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wide Eyed in Wonder
I usually ignore your posts, but this one was screaming out for a
response...
Post by buckeye
Where do rights come from? Do they come from the natural world or from a
supernatural dimension? And how do we know that we have them? Are rights
rationally understandable facts of reality or mystically intuited article=
s
Post by buckeye
of faith? The answers one gives to these questions determine how one hold=
s
Post by buckeye
the concept of =93rights=94 in one=92s mind, how one uses the concept in
practice, and whether or not one is able intellectually to defend rights
when they are attacked.
On the religious worldview, quoting Alan Keyes: =93Our rights come from t=
he
Post by buckeye
will of God.=941 President George W. Bush concurs: =93We received our rig=
hts
Post by buckeye
from God.=942 Newt Gingrich challenges anyone to cite another source for
rights: =93If you are not endowed by your Creator with certain inalienabl=
e
Post by buckeye
rights where do they come from?=943 In other words: If there is no God, t=
here
Post by buckeye
are no rights.
This idea is not only wrong; it is exactly backward. The fact is that if
there were a God (which there is not), there would be no rights=97and as =
long
Post by buckeye
as people believe that rights come from God, they will be unable to
understand rights or to properly defend them. . .
[end excerpt]
First, to your point....
"And yet the same revolutionary beliefs for which our forebears fought
are still at issue around the globe--the belief that the rights of man
come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God."
- John F Kennedy in 1961
Does the Democrat party still agree with JFK on the origin of rights
or not?
Next, a little addition....
Will mankind be judged by the law of God or the law of man?
I earnestly hoping the right answer is "the law of man." I
say that because Fenrir's fangs are very, very sharp, and
moreover Bastet -- well, She has been known to torment for the
pure fun of it.


-- cary
Post by Wide Eyed in Wonder
Well, can
a criminal stand up in their trial, reject the law over them, and
demand to be judged by their own justifications? That has never
happened (even Saddam Hussein's objections didn't work). How do we
expect that God will judge us by our justifications, instead of His
law?
Proverbs 21:2 "Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the
LORD pondereth the hearts."
Kenneth Clifton
www.2008jesus.com
Richo
2008-09-20 12:55:08 UTC
Permalink
http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2006-summer/religion-vs-fr...
[excerpt]
Religion vs. Free Speech
<snip>
Rights are principles specifying the kinds of actions that a person should
be able to take. The right to free speech, if it exists, is the prerogative
to express one’s ideas, whether in spoken, written, or artistic
form—regardless of what anyone else thinks, believes, or feels about those
ideas. If there is no right to “offend God,” as the Islamic militants
insist, then there is no right to free speech. And whether or not we have
the right to “offend God” depends on the source and nature of rights.
Where do rights come from? Do they come from the natural world or from a
supernatural dimension?
None of the above.
And how do we know that we have them? Are rights
rationally understandable facts of reality or mystically intuited articles
of faith?
Neither.

Mark

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