Pandeism

[Pandeism Fish]

Pandeism is a variation of Deism that also incorporates the core
concept of Pantheism, that being that the Creator not only designed
and created the Universe, but also became the Universe. The evidence
is in thermodynamics -- as we know, energy can neither be created nor
destroyed, but can only change forms. So, where did the Creator obtain
the energy with which to create the Universe? From its own substance,
naturally!! And so, why does the Creator appear to step away from its
Creation? Because it has surrendered its individual conscious
existence so that it might share in the existence of a Universe with
precisely such complexity as might give rise to intelligent life --
when Carl Sagan said we are the way for the Cosmos to know itself, he
may not have been thinking in this most literal sense!!

This idea has particular validity in light of the recent publication
by Duke University physicist Robert G. Brown demonstrating through
information theory that the only way a being could be omniscient is by
itself existing as a real-time information map of the Universe --
which is itself at the lowest level an organization of information!!

[Bert Olton]

Post by Pandeism Fish
Pandeism is a variation of Deism that also incorporates the core
concept of Pantheism, that being that the Creator not only designed
and created the Universe, but also became the Universe.

I would posit that most Deists believe that any Creator was the Universe
before he/she/it created humanity or anything else...





The evidence

Post by Pandeism Fish
is in thermodynamics -- as we know, energy can neither be created nor
destroyed, but can only change forms.

That is a simple assumption based only on simplistic observations. If
there was nothingness before Creation, whence Creation? Our physics
requires stagnant concepts. The physics of Creation probably
incorporate other things.




So, where did the Creator obtain

Post by Pandeism Fish
the energy with which to create the Universe? From its own substance,
naturally!!

Not necessarily. From perhaps it's own concept? Creativity after all
creates - both matter and energy.





And so, why does the Creator appear to step away from its

Post by Pandeism Fish
Creation? Because it has surrendered its individual conscious
existence so that it might share in the existence of a Universe with
precisely such complexity as might give rise to intelligent life --
when Carl Sagan said we are the way for the Cosmos to know itself, he
may not have been thinking in this most literal sense!!

I don't think so. I don't think that the Creator stepped away. The
Creator is ever present. The Creator would have no reason to surrender
its "individual conscious existence". It would know of the probability
of intelligent life developing. It after all, created that possibility.

Post by Pandeism Fish
This idea has particular validity in light of the recent publication
by Duke University physicist Robert G. Brown demonstrating through
information theory that the only way a being could be omniscient is by
itself existing as a real-time information map of the Universe --
which is itself at the lowest level an organization of information!!

Again, I disagree. Those are human assumptions based on human
observations of human/computer behavior. Very limited, very prejudiced.

Bert

[Pandeism Fish]

Post by Bert Olton

Post by Pandeism Fish
Pandeism is a variation of Deism that also incorporates the core
concept of Pantheism, that being that the Creator not only designed
and created the Universe, but also became the Universe.

I would posit that most Deists believe that any Creator was the Universe
before he/she/it created humanity or anything else...

Did you mean to say that you do not believe that? You seem to be
disagreeing....

Post by Bert Olton

Post by Pandeism Fish
The evidence
is in thermodynamics -- as we know, energy can neither be created nor
destroyed, but can only change forms.

That is a simple assumption based only on simplistic observations.  If
there was nothingness before Creation, whence Creation?  Our physics
requires stagnant concepts.  The physics of Creation probably
incorporate other things.

I did not say there was nothingness before Creation; I think there was
the Creator in a native state of pure energy, or some force preceding
even energy....

Post by Bert Olton

Post by Pandeism Fish
So, where did the Creator obtain
the energy with which to create the Universe? From its own substance,
naturally!!

Not necessarily.  From perhaps it's own concept?  Creativity after all
creates - both matter and energy.

If the Creator uses its own energy, then it is only required to have
the capacity to transform that energy, and that is entirely sufficient
to explain the character of the material Universe -- why add to it an
unnecessary power of Creation of energy?

Post by Bert Olton
  And so, why does the Creator appear to step away from its

Post by Pandeism Fish
Creation? Because it has surrendered its individual conscious
existence so that it might share in the existence of a Universe with
precisely such complexity as might give rise to intelligent life --
when Carl Sagan said we are the way for the Cosmos to know itself, he
may not have been thinking in this most literal sense!!

I don't think so.  I don't think that the Creator stepped away.  The
Creator is ever present.  The Creator would have no reason to surrender
its "individual conscious existence".  It would know of the probability
of intelligent life developing.  It after all, created that possibility.

I agree that it is ever present, but I believe that it is unconscious
precisely because it has become the Universe in order to experience
existence through the experience of life in the Universe.... as Carl
Sagan says, "we are a way for the Cosmos to know itself" -- echoing
the insight of Eriugena from twelve centuries before....

Post by Bert Olton

Post by Pandeism Fish
This idea has particular validity in light of the recent publication
by Duke University physicist Robert G. Brown demonstrating through
information theory that the only way a being could be omniscient is by
itself existing as a real-time information map of the Universe --
which is itself at the lowest level an organization of information!!

Again, I disagree.  Those are human assumptions based on human
observations of human/computer behavior.  Very limited, very prejudiced.
Bert

How better to observe something? From outside, or from within?

[Bert Olton]

Post by Pandeism Fish

Post by Bert Olton

Post by Pandeism Fish
Pandeism is a variation of Deism that also incorporates the core
concept of Pantheism, that being that the Creator not only designed
and created the Universe, but also became the Universe.

I would posit that most Deists believe that any Creator was the Universe
before he/she/it created humanity or anything else...

Did you mean to say that you do not believe that? You seem to be
disagreeing....

What I'm disagreeing with there is that God *became* the universe. (In
the following, I'm not claiming to speak for all Deists by any means -
just myself.)

My thought is that God *was* the universe before what we perceive as
creation was created.

And the crux of my further disagreement with thermodynamics is: what we
perceive as energy was as much a part of that creation as was the
creation of the matter we perceive.

Post by Pandeism Fish
I did not say there was nothingness before Creation; I think there was
the Creator in a native state of pure energy, or some force preceding
even energy....

That I can agree with, in the sense, as I said, that God preceded
creation. I do not agree however that God changed form or even changed
his means of perception of the universe just because of his having
created it.

Pandeism Fish - you make for a fun discussion. My compliments. And, my
apologies for the major cuts I made in this reply. It wasn't done to
avoid answering any points, but simply to make the conversation a little
less unwieldy.

Best regards,
Bert