Discussion:
Why should religion and education be seperate?
(too old to reply)
buckeye
2008-08-15 12:32:08 UTC
Permalink
:|I believe that religion and education should go hand in hand, when
:|prayer was mandatory and God could be talked about, we didnt see the
:|problems we have today!
Most of the problems that exist today existed in the past. Poverty, crime,
violence, hate, fear, discrimination, etc.
:|Yes everyone is entitled to their beliefs but
:|for those atheists or all you so called freedom of choice believers
:|did you not take away my rights when you told me I couldnt mention God
:|or say prayer before school..
You can pray all you want just about anywhere at any time.

Employers whom hired you to do a certain job have the right to expect you
to do that job, thus the can rightfully place some restrictions on what you
can and cannot do during the time period you are "on their clock" so to
speak.

Pub;ic school has that same right as well since they have a particular
function to perform. Therefore they can rightfully place some restrictions
on what students can do when "on their clock" so to speak.

Like it or not, public schools are a part of government, and there are
constitutional issues that that come into play with regards to religion in
such a setting.

Prayer is totally and completely legal even on school grounds when u are on
your "clock" on those grounds.
:|how about when you say I cant have a
:|report on Jesus or Buddah or whoever I choose to worship because I am
:|infringing on their rights! My rights are taken away daily by people
:|like this.
Your "rights" are not bveing takn away by anyone.
:| If you dont want to pray be quiet if you cant stand to hear
:|Gods name, shut your ears, whistle whatever you choose to do Religion
:|and school should be made to be required!!!!!!
The folliowing addresses your intolerant mindset:

Why the Court Should Reject This Pledge, and Why the Department of
Justice Is Wrong To Support It

One would have thought that conservatives would have sided with the
parent's right to raise one's child according to one's own religious
beliefs, but as the Framers understood only too well, one should never
underestimate the powerful temptation to extend one's power when one
can.

If anyone thinks that this case is not about the power of the
entrenched religious versus the powerlessness of nonbelievers in this
society, today's oral argument proves them wrong. Chief Justice
Rehnquist floated several proposals to defend "under God." First, he
stated that the two words were not really a "prayer," a distinction without
a difference.

. . . The result is a tyranny of principles (including the
emotivist's principle of deference to "objective expertise"), as well as a
concomitant response in favor of a tyranny of individuals (anarchy). These
twin aspects of emotivism are evident, for example, in the rise of efforts,
under the rubrics of free speech and free exercise, to place formal
Christian prayers sanctioned by school authority back into the public
schools. The free exercise right is asserted here in terms of anarchical,
radical individual rights: "my" individual rights, "my" absolute right to
free exercise, without regard to the disestablishment principle or to
competing interests of the community. Interestingly, where they are able,
religious adherents (also or instead) argue the authoritarian side of
emotivism: They reject any court's interpretations of the first amendment
which recognize civil liberties contrary to their beliefs because these
interpretations are based upon nothing more than the justices' personal
opinions and subjective feelings.13 Their majority status and legislative
influence are the hard facts which objectively, and thus conclusively,
should decide the issue.
Source of Information: Regulating Religion, The Courts and the Free
Exercise Clause. Catharine Cookson, Oxford University Press, (2001) p
(Preface) IX.

***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:

The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm

American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm

The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html

[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]

HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/

***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote

"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"

That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.

It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.

*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
buckeye
2008-08-17 10:33:21 UTC
Permalink
:|> Like it or not, public schools are a part of government, and there are
:|> constitutional issues that that come into play with regards to religion in
:|> such a setting.
:|
:|Education is NOT an aspect of /legitimate/ government. Government, when
:|legitimately established, is for the protection of rights, not the
:|establishment of social programs.
:|
:|Therefore, in looking at the issue in question, discussing religion
:|in/out of the classroom on constitutional grounds is artificial and
:|contrived.
(yawn)


If you really knew what you were talking it would be worthwhile messing
with you but since you don't it is higly boring and no challenge at all

***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:

The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm

American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm

The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html

[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]

HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/

***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote

"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"

That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.

It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.

*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
buckeye
2008-09-02 11:45:10 UTC
Permalink
:|>
:|>> :|> Like it or not, public schools are a part of government, and there are
:|>> :|> constitutional issues that that come into play with regards to religion in
:|>> :|> such a setting.
:|>> :|
:|>> :|Education is NOT an aspect of /legitimate/ government. Government, when
:|>> :|legitimately established, is for the protection of rights, not the
:|>> :|establishment of social programs.
:|>> :|
:|>> :|Therefore, in looking at the issue in question, discussing religion
:|>> :|in/out of the classroom on constitutional grounds is artificial and
:|>> :|contrived.
:|>
:|> (yawn)
:|>
:|>
:|> If you really knew what you were talking it would be worthwhile messing
:|> with you but since you don't it is higly boring and no challenge at all
:|
:|Your lack of a substantive response is noted.
:|
:|Have a nice day.
Naaaaaaa, you got all you will ever get from me. As far as could I give you
a detailed answer. Most certainly as most who bother to read any of these
various posts already know. I have done so in the past, with a fella who
calls himself info junkie (just plain junkie works too as far as I am
concerned) Those posts of mine were highly detailed with historical facts
and legal facts on this very topic.

But you, you don't get that from me since you have demonstrated you will
not bother to read any of it anyway and will just bellyache & whiine
because I posted in more newsgroups than you personally approve of and I
didn't spoon feed you the answers.


***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:

The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm

American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm

The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html

[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]

HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/

***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote

"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"

That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.

It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.

*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
N***@Click.com
2008-09-02 13:17:04 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 07:45:10 -0400, buckeye
Post by buckeye
Those posts of mine were highly detailed with historical facts
and legal facts on this very topic.
Seems to me that there were lots of "details and facts"
in days when people accepted as truth about how ships
fell of the edge o' the earth-(because they disappeared
over the horizon)

That made the conclusions they made (from all those
details and facts) rather silly.

buckeye
2008-08-17 10:33:30 UTC
Permalink
:|>>> Like it or not, public schools are a part of government, and there are
:|>>> constitutional issues that that come into play with regards to religion in
:|>>> such a setting.
:|>> Education is NOT an aspect of /legitimate/ government. Government, when
:|>> legitimately established, is for the protection of rights, not the
:|>> establishment of social programs.
:|>
:|> Our government, legitimately established by the Constitution,
:|> will equally legitimally acquire any aspect we the people
:|> choose for it, within the limits of that Constitution.
:|>
:|> And we have chosen to involve it in eduction.
:|
:|Can you point out, constitutionally, where "we have chosen to involve it
:|in eduction"?
Of course I can and so could you if you even had a clue what you were
talking about.

Buyt I have already leanred that providing you with data is a waste of
tuime since you don't bother to study it and you bitch becaseu i don't
break it down into baby bites and spoon feed it to you

***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:

The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm

American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm

The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html

[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]

HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/

***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote

"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"

That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.

It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.

*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
buckeye
2008-08-26 11:55:37 UTC
Permalink
:|>
:|>> :|>>> Like it or not, public schools are a part of government, and there are
:|>> :|>>> constitutional issues that that come into play with regards to religion in
:|>> :|>>> such a setting.
:|>> :|>> Education is NOT an aspect of /legitimate/ government. Government, when
:|>> :|>> legitimately established, is for the protection of rights, not the
:|>> :|>> establishment of social programs.
:|>> :|>
:|>> :|> Our government, legitimately established by the Constitution,
:|>> :|> will equally legitimally acquire any aspect we the people
:|>> :|> choose for it, within the limits of that Constitution.
:|>> :|>
:|>> :|> And we have chosen to involve it in eduction.
:|>> :|
:|>> :|Can you point out, constitutionally, where "we have chosen to involve it
:|>> :|in eduction"?
:|>
:|> Of course I can and so could you if you even had a clue what you were
:|> talking about.
:|>
:|> Buyt I have already leanred that providing you with data is a waste of
:|> tuime since you don't bother to study it and you bitch becaseu i don't
:|> break it down into baby bites and spoon feed it to you
:|
:|Your actions indicate that you can't point it out.
Oh silly man. I do not accept your "grade school yard childish dares"

You should know by now that I can back up anything I state easily. If I
have not personally researched something I will state that fact.

Otherwise I can back up my claims with vast amounts of documentation,

I have done that with you in the past only to read your belly aching
complaints that you offer as excuses because you are too lazy to bother
and read that which I provided.

Josh will play with you, sometimes Bob will, I don't waste my time.
:|>> :|Can you point out, constitutionally, where "we have chosen to involve it
:|>> :|in eduction"?
:|>
:|> Of course I can and so could you if you even had a clue what you were
:|> talking about.
:|>
:|> But I have already learned that providing you with data is a waste of
:|> time since you don't bother to study it and you bitch because I don't
:|> break it down into baby bites and spoon feed it to you
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:

The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm

American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm

The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html

[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]

HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/

***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote

"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"

That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.

It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.

*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
N***@Click.com
2008-08-26 17:45:05 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 07:55:37 -0400, buckeye
Post by buckeye
You should know by now that I can back up anything I state easily.
Well, perhaps not the application of the 4th and 5th
amendment to the collection of Income Taxes.
buckeye
2008-08-28 18:19:16 UTC
Permalink
:|On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 07:55:37 -0400, buckeye
:|
:|>You should know by now that I can back up anything I state easily.
:|
:|Well, perhaps not the application of the 4th and 5th
:|amendment to the collection of Income Taxes.
Not anything I have said anything about. Not my interest. Not my horse. Not
my race.

***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:

The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm

American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm

The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html

[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]

HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/

***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote

"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"

That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.

It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.

*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
buckeye
2008-08-28 18:22:34 UTC
Permalink
:|On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 14:34:19 -0700, Peter Franks
:|
:|>All of that blather, and you still can't point it out.
:|>
:|>I think the point is clear -- you are a lot of talk but very little fact.
:|
:|No, you're wrong
:|
:|He's a "lot of Talk", a "lot of facts" most of which
:|are undeniable.----but has some problem with the
:|correct conclusions from them.
:|
Your unsubstantiated claim is noted.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ordinary or extraordinary claims require ordinary or extraordinary proof.
If you're going to claim something and especially something outlandish
you're going to need some pretty extraordinary and/or irrefutable proof to
back up such a claim. "Where's the beef?" Where's the ordinary or
extraordinary proof for their ordinary or extraordinary claims? If one is
not responding with ordinary or extraordinary, *factual* proof, then the
claim is not worth considering
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[ as ***@nospam said]
Why is asking for "proof" considered truculence? Do you consider it
truculence for a judge to ask for evidence in a trial. Would you rather
that
people just testified that they believed in the guilt of the suspect?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[as Gray Shockley said:]
Your "opinion" is not an adequate citation.
You forgot your citations.
Or, are your opinions more valid than facts?
You do realize, do you not?, that opinion without substantiation is just
propaganda for those without critical thinking abilities and originate with
those who are attempting to manipulate rather than those who are attempting
to clarify.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The late USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote

"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"

That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.

It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.

***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:

The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm

American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm

The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html

[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]

HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/

***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote

"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"

That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.

It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.

*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
N***@Click.com
2008-08-28 23:14:12 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:22:34 -0400, buckeye
Post by buckeye
:|On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 14:34:19 -0700, Peter Franks
:|
:|>All of that blather, and you still can't point it out.
:|>
:|>I think the point is clear -- you are a lot of talk but very little fact.
:|
:|No, you're wrong
:|
:|He's a "lot of Talk", a "lot of facts" most of which
:|are undeniable.----but has some problem with the
:|correct conclusions from them.
:|
And, as usual, your unilateral conclusion is laughed
at.
Post by buckeye
Your unsubstantiated claim is noted.
buckeye
2008-08-30 15:21:12 UTC
Permalink
:|On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:22:34 -0400, buckeye
:|
:|>
:|>>:|On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 14:34:19 -0700, Peter Franks
:|>>:|
:|>>:|>All of that blather, and you still can't point it out.
:|>>:|>
:|>>:|>I think the point is clear -- you are a lot of talk but very little fact.
:|>>:|
:|>>:|No, you're wrong
:|>>:|
:|>>:|He's a "lot of Talk", a "lot of facts" most of which
:|>>:|are undeniable.----but has some problem with the
:|>>:|correct conclusions from them.
:|>>:|
Your unsubstantiated claim is noted.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ordinary or extraordinary claims require ordinary or extraordinary proof.
If you're going to claim something and especially something outlandish
you're going to need some pretty extraordinary and/or irrefutable proof to
back up such a claim. "Where's the beef?" Where's the ordinary or
extraordinary proof for their ordinary or extraordinary claims? If one is
not responding with ordinary or extraordinary, *factual* proof, then the
claim is not worth considering
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[ as ***@nospam said]
Why is asking for "proof" considered truculence? Do you consider it
truculence for a judge to ask for evidence in a trial. Would you rather
that
people just testified that they believed in the guilt of the suspect?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[as Gray Shockley said:]
Your "opinion" is not an adequate citation.
You forgot your citations.
Or, are your opinions more valid than facts?
You do realize, do you not?, that opinion without substantiation is just
propaganda for those without critical thinking abilities and originate with
those who are attempting to manipulate rather than those who are attempting
to clarify.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The late USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote

"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"

That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.

It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.

***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:

The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm

American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm

The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html

[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]

HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/

***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote

"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"

That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.

It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.

*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
buckeye
2008-08-19 10:58:18 UTC
Permalink
:|WRT the US, take a look at Amendment X for further details.
Ahhhhhh, Amendment 10

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To Understand the Tenth Amendment, it is important to know that the
constitution delegates, or gives, certain powers to the federal government.
Most of these powers are actually enumerated, or named. . .
The federal government has other powers besides those clearly
listed in the Constitution. These are implied, or unstated, powers. of
They cover a variety of matters. The Constitutions states that Congress
shall "make all Laws which shall be necessary proper for carrying into
Execution the foregoing Powers and all other Powers vested by this
Constitution in the Government of the United states." This "'necessary and
proper"clause (or elastic clause) gives the federal government the legal
right to exercise the implied power that is connected to its clearly listed
powers. For example, the federal government has the enumerated power to
make laws concerning trade between states. That power has been stretched
to include things not specifically listed in the Constitution such as
regulating air, bus, train, and truck transportation between states. The
federal government also regulates TV and radio. The issue of implied
powers was first raised by Chief Justice John Marshall
The Constitution also gives part of the federal government
Congress-the power "to provide for the ... general welfare of the United
States." Under this power, the federal government has done many things not
listed in the Constitution. For example, the federal government has built
dams and flood control projects. It has set up national parks. It has
established a billion dollar system of social security benefits for older
citizens and for the disabled and poor.
The federal government also shares certain powers with the states.
These concurrent, or shared, powers include setting and collecting taxes,
passing criminal laws on the same matter, and spending money for-the good
of the public.
The Constitution also names particular things that the states may
not do. For instance, states may not enter into treaties with countries.
Nor may states make laws that interfere with contracts or give people
titles of nobility (such as "count" or "duchess"). States are also
prohibited from coining money.
The states have thousands of powers. Every state creates and
controls its own government and sets voting requirements for its citizens.
The state controls local business, labor, and professions, as well as the
ownership, use, and sale of property. The state has tremendous
responsibility for looking after its citizens' health and welfare. It has
the power to set and collect taxes for these purposes. Looking out for its
citizens means controlling schools, hospitals, roads, and other public
services. It means making laws that require vaccinations and limiting
automobile exhaust fumes. It means outlawing forms of gambling and
forbidding ownership of dangerous weapons. It means establishing highway
speed limits and controlling the sale and use of alcoholic beverages. It
can also mean forbidding the sale of soft drinks if they are in bottles or
cans that aren't accepted for return.
From the beginning, the states kept some of these important powers
for themselves. After all, the Tenth Amendment says that all powers not
given to the federal government or forbidden to the states are reserved
to-that is, belong to-either the states or the people.

The Preamble, or first part, of the Constitution begins with the phrase,
"We the People. . ." and ends with". . . do ordain and establish this
Constitution for the United States of America.," All the powers that the
Constitution of the United States gives, both to the states and to the
federal government, flow directly from the people.
Now think about what the Tenth Amendment is really saying:
All powers that are not given to the federal government or forbidden to the
states belong-- either to the states or to the people. The Tenth Amendment
really seems to be setting limits on the power of the federal government.
Yet this is exactly what the main part of the Constitution itself does. In
fact, many scholars believe that the Tenth Amendment only repeats what is
said in the Constitution. If this is true, then why has the Tenth
Amendment been interpreted--its meaning studied and debated--over and over
again?
To answer this question, compare the wording of the Tenth Amendment
with these travel directions: , 'Drive 14.2 miles. Turn left just before
the bridge. Continue for two blocks. Stop at the bank on your right." How
detailed is the amendment compared with the travel directions? Does the
amendment give an exact road map for the constitutional traveler? The
answer is clearly no.
Some scholars believe that those who wrote the Tenth Amendment
purposely made it vague, or fuzzy. Why would they want to do that?
Article 11 of the Articles of Confederation (ratified in 1781) will help
to explain this. Article 11, like the Tenth Amendment that came after it,
deals with the power of state governments and the federal government. But
Article 11 includes a key word that is not found in the Tenth Amendment.
Pay special attention -to the underlined [capitalized] word as you read the
Article:

Each State retains its sovereignty [power not controlled by any other
power], freedom and independence, and every power, jurisdiction and right,
which is not by this confederation EXPRESSLY delegated to the United
States, in Congress assembled. [underlining-capitalized- added]

The word expressly means " directly " or " specifically. " A sign in a
restaurant that sets aside one area expressly for nonsmokers means "Keep
out of this area if you wish to smoke!" A Congress that has only those
powers expressly delegated to itself is also limited. It may do only those
things that the Constitution actually names as its fight. It may not do
anything more. The U.S. government under the Articles of Confederation was
called a body without a head. It was the word expressly that had chopped
the head off that national body.
Those who were present at the 1787 Constitutional Convention knew
how Article II of the Articles of Confederation had weakened the federal
government earlier. Delegates who attended the state conventions to ratify
the Constitution probably knew it, too. The word expressly didn't bother
the Anti-Federalists. In fact, they pressed hard to have the word
expressly included in any amendment about the "reserved powers" of the
states.
After the Constitutional Convention had approved the Constitution,
the states held their own conventions to make decisions about ratifying it.
The Federalists had tried hard to persuade state delegates to vote for the
Constitution. They convinced the delegates that amendments should be
decided on separately from the Constitution itself. The states therefore
came up with various ideas for amendments. Massachusetts, New Hampshire,
New York, South Carolina, and Virginia all wrote amendments that reserved
to the states those powers not delegated to the central government. Except
for Virginia, all of these states wanted the new amendment to keep for the
states all powers ,"expressly " or "clearly," delegated to the federal
government.
On June 8, 1789, James Madison introduced the various state
amendments to Congress. His wording for the "reserved powers" amendment
stated: "The powers not delegated to this constitution, nor prohibited by
it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively." When the Senate
approved the amendment on September 7, 1789, it included the words "or to
the people." Both the Senate and the House of Representatives accepted the
amendment as the twelfth and last one. Then, after two other amendments
were rejected, the "reserved powers" amendment moved up two places and
became the tenth amendment in the list. After Congress voted to propose
the ten amendments known as the Bill of Rights, it was up to the states to
ratify these amendments. In 1791 the Tenth Amendment and the other nine
amendments were finally ratified.
Remember, the Tenth Amendment did not include the word expressly.
What effect would this have on the way in which the amendment was received?
As you may have guessed, it left the door wide open for different
interpretations of federal powers.
SOURCE OF INFORMATION: The American Heritage History of the Bill of Rights,
The Tenth Amendment, Judith Adams, Silver Burdett Press. (1991) pp 31-36
*******************************************************************

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or
to the people."

That's the Tenth Amendment. It's a cut-and-paste job of a part of the
Articles of Confederation that limited the Confederation government to
powers not EXPRESSLY delegated to it by the Articles. James Madison
carefully knocked the word "expressly" out of the text of the amendment so
that it would not prevent the federal government from exercising powers not
expressly provided by the Constitution but implied by its provisions and
not specifically barred.
**************************************************************
THE BILL OF RIGHTS & THE TENTH AMENDMENT

. . . The great national debate continued unabated as the
confederationalist school caused another kind of impasse, as many States
made their demands for a Bill of Rights known. Many agreed to ratify the
Constitution with the provision that a Bill of Rights would be attached
with all due haste after its ratification. There was some that insisted
that it not be ratified without it, but those who had toiled over its
drafting were convincing in their protests that they were not optimistic
about a second convention being successful. The first had barely escaped an
impasse. So the Constitution was ratified with the understanding that a
Bill of Rights would be submitted for ratification immediately afterwards.
The Preamble to the Bill of Rights reflects this demand, in much softer
language:

"The conventions of a number of the States having at the time of their
adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent
misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and
restrictive clauses should be added..."

Some States even went so far as to include their right to secede from the
Union in their ratifying documents. This could not be easily denied,
especially at the time, and it sent a clear message to the new Congress - a
Bill of Rights or face the secession of States from the "more perfect
union", the shortest lived union of its kind in all time. Some were opposed
to creating such a Bill, but political expediency won the day and a Bill of
Rights was produced that satisfied many of the demands of the
confederationalist school. Of particular note was the Tenth Amendment that
many States had specifically demanded:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or
to the people."

The Tenth Amendment is a more generally worded version of reserved rights
of the State governments that is found in Article II of the Articles of
Confederation. What was not included in Article II are any references to
the people, which reflects what the ratifiers of the Constitution had come
to believe was the nature of the new Constitutional Federalism.
http://www.ktas.org/confed2.htm
**********************************************************

THERE HAVE BEEN ATTEMPTS TO UNDERMINE WHAT
THE FOUNDERS PASSED BY ADDING THE WORD EXPRESSLY
TO THE TENTH AMENDMENT:




THE BATTLE OVER THE TENTH AMENDMENT:
OPENING A SECOND FRONT
PETE DU PONT*
http://www.ncpa.org/oped/dupont/10am.html

Perhaps it is the structure of the Constitution that has enabled the
federal judiciary to run roughshod over the Tenth Amendment. As one
commentator has observed, "whatever the Founders' intentions, the rules
they wrote are skewed in favor of national power."9


A plan for a sustained devolution of power from centralized government
might be accomplished through three mechanisms: a federalism statute; a
federal statute narrowing the jurisdiction of the federal courts, and a
constitutional amendment further clarifying the Tenth Amendment itself.

A Federalism Statute. The most effective way to focus the federal
judiciary's attention on the importance of the Tenth Amendment, and to make
sure that the federalist structure of government it commands is reinstated,
is to force such ideas on the federal judiciary using congressional powers.
A federalism statute with the purpose of both instructing the federal
courts and empowering state governments would contain half a dozen
elements, each of which is intended to promote a greater recognition of
state and local governments' rights and to codify the intentions of
Congress for its future role vis-a-vis the States.

First, the statute should contain a statement of principles to guide the
judiciary in the application of the Tenth Amendment. Justice Thomas'
dissent in the Term Limits case provides them:25

* the federal government enjoys no authority beyond what the
Constitution confers -- its powers are limited and enumerated;

* the States can exercise all powers that the Constitution does not
withhold from them; and

* where the Constitution is silent about the exercise of a power, the
federal government lacks it and the States enjoy it.


In addition to a statement of principles, the statute should state that the
Tenth Amendment is intended to provide substantive limits on Congress'
power; that the States need not rely solely on the political process for
protection against burdensome Congressional exercise; and that the
protections afforded the States by the Tenth Amendment should be enforced
by the judiciary when Congress oversteps its boundaries and infringes on
state sovereignty. The U.S. Supreme Court has not abandoned these concepts
entirely, as indicated by its 1992 decision in New York v. United States,26
in which the Court struck down a portion of The Low Level Radioactive Waste
Policy Amendments Act of 198527 as an impermissible Congressional mandate
for states to regulate their citizens. But a codification of these
principles is an important step in strengthening Tenth Amendment viability
in the eyes of the courts.

Finally, the statute should follow with four specific statements of
Congressional self-limitation:28
1. A statement that there shall be no preemption of state and local
authority unless Congress expressly declares its intent to do so. This
"clear statement" requirement in areas where Congress may be impeding state
powers is important to the concept of political accountability. Only with
full and accurate understanding of both who is making decisions and what
decisions have been made can the people in a democracy make an informed
decision as to the policies they desire to be implemented and who shall
represent them in carrying out those policies.29

2. A statement that all federal laws and administrative regulations issued
pursuant thereto shall not be interpreted by the courts to infringe in any
material way upon the authority and capacity of state and local governments
to perform their basic and traditional functions, unless expresslydeclared
by Congress.

3. A provision prohibiting Congress from imposing conditions on federal
grants unless such conditions are expressly stated, are reasonable, and
have a direct relationship to the program being funded. This provision goes
further than the Court would have allowed in the New York v. United States
case, in which the Court acknowledged that conditions attached to the
receipt of federal funds must "bear some relationship to the purpose of the
federal spending . . . ."30


4. A limitation on federal mandates, drawn from the "Headlee amendment"
approved in Michigan to that state's constitution.31 Such an amendment
would restrict the federal government from mandating programs to state and
local governments without appropriating the money necessary to comply with
the mandates. Unfunded mandates undermine political accountability, by
placing the selection of policies in Washington and the execution of them
in state capitals.

A Federal Statute Narrowing the Jurisdiction of the Federal Courts. Further
Congressional action in support of a federalist system of government could
be achieved by utilizing the "Exceptions Clause" of Article III of the
Constitution to remove jurisdiction from the federal courts on certain
federalism issues.32 Although rarely invoked, the power of Congress to
limit the jurisdiction of federal courts is well established.33 For
example, in 1932 Congress passed and President Hoover signed the Norris
LaGuardia Anti Injunction Act34 utilizing Article III to restrict the
ability of federal courts to intervene in labor strikes.

The Supreme Court, in Lauf v. E. G. Shinner & Co., upheld this attempt by
Congress to limit the jurisdiction of the federal courts, holding that
"[t]here can be no question of the power of Congress to define and limit
the jurisdiction of the inferior courts of the United States." 35

As Chief Justice Harlan F. Stone stated in Lockerty v. Phillips:36 "The
Congressional power to ordain and establish inferior courts includes the
power of investing them with jurisdiction either limited, concurrent, or
exclusive, and of withholding jurisdiction from them in the exact degrees
and character which to Congress may seem proper for the public good."

These constitutional provisions can serve as the foundation of a statute to
remove from the federal courts the power to review matters left to the
States by the Constitution and the Tenth Amendment. While the drafting of a
federal statute to narrow federal court jurisdiction would require careful
thought, its objectives are clear: to restore state power, as envisioned by
the Constitution, over a wide range of issues, including state and local
taxation; the terms of employment of state and local governmental
employees; educational standards, funding and transportation; state
welfare, housing and transportation matters; the drinking age; abortion;
local commerce; and so forth.


An "Exceptions Clause" statute to remove the power of the federal courts
over school bussing might read: "No court of the United States, as herein
defined, shall have jurisdiction to issue any order in a case involving or
growing out of a dispute involving the transportation of students to
achieve a racial balance in schools or classrooms; nor shall any order
regarding the transportation of students to achieve a racial balance in
schools or classrooms be issued contrary to the public policy declared in
this Act."

A Constitutional Amendment. Although more difficult to achieve,
Constitutional amendments offer another viable method of restoring and
strengthening federalist principles. In fact, to settle the issue of
federalism with some degree of finality, a Constitutional amendment would
be the most appropriate solution. The most direct approach would be to
enact a constitutional amendment to clarify the Tenth Amendment, and while
I do not offer the following as draft language of a constitutional
amendment, it does convey the spirit of what needs to be enacted: "The
several states and the people shall have all powers not expressly delegated
herein to the federal government or which are directly necessary to, and
inseparable from, such express powers, whether such powers existed prior
to, or were created after, the ratification of this Constitution; and the
federal government shall have only those powers as are expresslyenumerated
herein or which are directly necessary to, and inseparable from, such
express powers."

* * * *







***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:

The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm

American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm

The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html

[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]

HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/

***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote

"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"

That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.

It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.

*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
buckeye
2008-08-29 12:02:56 UTC
Permalink
:|>:|WRT the US, take a look at Amendment X for further details.
Your lack of reply or inability to reply to the following has been noted
:|
:|
:|Ahhhhhh, Amendment 10
:|
:|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
:| To Understand the Tenth Amendment, it is important to know that the
:|constitution delegates, or gives, certain powers to the federal government.
:|Most of these powers are actually enumerated, or named. . .
:| The federal government has other powers besides those clearly
:| listed in the Constitution. These are implied, or unstated, powers. of
:|They cover a variety of matters. The Constitutions states that Congress
:|shall "make all Laws which shall be necessary proper for carrying into
:|Execution the foregoing Powers and all other Powers vested by this
:|Constitution in the Government of the United states." This "'necessary and
:|proper"clause (or elastic clause) gives the federal government the legal
:|right to exercise the implied power that is connected to its clearly listed
:|powers. For example, the federal government has the enumerated power to
:|make laws concerning trade between states. That power has been stretched
:|to include things not specifically listed in the Constitution such as
:|regulating air, bus, train, and truck transportation between states. The
:|federal government also regulates TV and radio. The issue of implied
:|powers was first raised by Chief Justice John Marshall
:| The Constitution also gives part of the federal government
:|Congress-the power "to provide for the ... general welfare of the United
:|States." Under this power, the federal government has done many things not
:|listed in the Constitution. For example, the federal government has built
:|dams and flood control projects. It has set up national parks. It has
:|established a billion dollar system of social security benefits for older
:|citizens and for the disabled and poor.
:| The federal government also shares certain powers with the states.
:|These concurrent, or shared, powers include setting and collecting taxes,
:|passing criminal laws on the same matter, and spending money for-the good
:|of the public.
:| The Constitution also names particular things that the states may
:|not do. For instance, states may not enter into treaties with countries.
:|Nor may states make laws that interfere with contracts or give people
:|titles of nobility (such as "count" or "duchess"). States are also
:|prohibited from coining money.
:| The states have thousands of powers. Every state creates and
:|controls its own government and sets voting requirements for its citizens.
:|The state controls local business, labor, and professions, as well as the
:|ownership, use, and sale of property. The state has tremendous
:|responsibility for looking after its citizens' health and welfare. It has
:|the power to set and collect taxes for these purposes. Looking out for its
:|citizens means controlling schools, hospitals, roads, and other public
:|services. It means making laws that require vaccinations and limiting
:|automobile exhaust fumes. It means outlawing forms of gambling and
:|forbidding ownership of dangerous weapons. It means establishing highway
:|speed limits and controlling the sale and use of alcoholic beverages. It
:|can also mean forbidding the sale of soft drinks if they are in bottles or
:|cans that aren't accepted for return.
:| From the beginning, the states kept some of these important powers
:|for themselves. After all, the Tenth Amendment says that all powers not
:|given to the federal government or forbidden to the states are reserved
:|to-that is, belong to-either the states or the people.
:|
:|The Preamble, or first part, of the Constitution begins with the phrase,
:|"We the People. . ." and ends with". . . do ordain and establish this
:|Constitution for the United States of America.," All the powers that the
:|Constitution of the United States gives, both to the states and to the
:|federal government, flow directly from the people.
:|All powers that are not given to the federal government or forbidden to the
:|states belong-- either to the states or to the people. The Tenth Amendment
:|really seems to be setting limits on the power of the federal government.
:|Yet this is exactly what the main part of the Constitution itself does. In
:|fact, many scholars believe that the Tenth Amendment only repeats what is
:|said in the Constitution. If this is true, then why has the Tenth
:|Amendment been interpreted--its meaning studied and debated--over and over
:|again?
:| To answer this question, compare the wording of the Tenth Amendment
:|with these travel directions: , 'Drive 14.2 miles. Turn left just before
:|the bridge. Continue for two blocks. Stop at the bank on your right." How
:|detailed is the amendment compared with the travel directions? Does the
:|amendment give an exact road map for the constitutional traveler? The
:|answer is clearly no.
:| Some scholars believe that those who wrote the Tenth Amendment
:|purposely made it vague, or fuzzy. Why would they want to do that?
:|Article 11 of the Articles of Confederation (ratified in 1781) will help
:|to explain this. Article 11, like the Tenth Amendment that came after it,
:|deals with the power of state governments and the federal government. But
:|Article 11 includes a key word that is not found in the Tenth Amendment.
:|Pay special attention -to the underlined [capitalized] word as you read the
:|
:|Each State retains its sovereignty [power not controlled by any other
:|power], freedom and independence, and every power, jurisdiction and right,
:|which is not by this confederation EXPRESSLY delegated to the United
:|States, in Congress assembled. [underlining-capitalized- added]
:|
:|The word expressly means " directly " or " specifically. " A sign in a
:|restaurant that sets aside one area expressly for nonsmokers means "Keep
:|out of this area if you wish to smoke!" A Congress that has only those
:|powers expressly delegated to itself is also limited. It may do only those
:|things that the Constitution actually names as its fight. It may not do
:|anything more. The U.S. government under the Articles of Confederation was
:|called a body without a head. It was the word expressly that had chopped
:|the head off that national body.
:| Those who were present at the 1787 Constitutional Convention knew
:|how Article II of the Articles of Confederation had weakened the federal
:|government earlier. Delegates who attended the state conventions to ratify
:|the Constitution probably knew it, too. The word expressly didn't bother
:|the Anti-Federalists. In fact, they pressed hard to have the word
:|expressly included in any amendment about the "reserved powers" of the
:|states.
:| After the Constitutional Convention had approved the Constitution,
:|the states held their own conventions to make decisions about ratifying it.
:|The Federalists had tried hard to persuade state delegates to vote for the
:|Constitution. They convinced the delegates that amendments should be
:|decided on separately from the Constitution itself. The states therefore
:|came up with various ideas for amendments. Massachusetts, New Hampshire,
:|New York, South Carolina, and Virginia all wrote amendments that reserved
:|to the states those powers not delegated to the central government. Except
:|for Virginia, all of these states wanted the new amendment to keep for the
:|states all powers ,"expressly " or "clearly," delegated to the federal
:|government.
:| On June 8, 1789, James Madison introduced the various state
:|amendments to Congress. His wording for the "reserved powers" amendment
:|stated: "The powers not delegated to this constitution, nor prohibited by
:|it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively." When the Senate
:|approved the amendment on September 7, 1789, it included the words "or to
:|the people." Both the Senate and the House of Representatives accepted the
:|amendment as the twelfth and last one. Then, after two other amendments
:|were rejected, the "reserved powers" amendment moved up two places and
:|became the tenth amendment in the list. After Congress voted to propose
:|the ten amendments known as the Bill of Rights, it was up to the states to
:|ratify these amendments. In 1791 the Tenth Amendment and the other nine
:|amendments were finally ratified.
:| Remember, the Tenth Amendment did not include the word expressly.
:|What effect would this have on the way in which the amendment was received?
:|As you may have guessed, it left the door wide open for different
:|interpretations of federal powers.
:|SOURCE OF INFORMATION: The American Heritage History of the Bill of Rights,
:|The Tenth Amendment, Judith Adams, Silver Burdett Press. (1991) pp 31-36
:|*******************************************************************
:|
:|"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
:|prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or
:|to the people."
:|
:|That's the Tenth Amendment. It's a cut-and-paste job of a part of the
:|Articles of Confederation that limited the Confederation government to
:|powers not EXPRESSLY delegated to it by the Articles. James Madison
:|carefully knocked the word "expressly" out of the text of the amendment so
:|that it would not prevent the federal government from exercising powers not
:|expressly provided by the Constitution but implied by its provisions and
:|not specifically barred.
:|**************************************************************
:|THE BILL OF RIGHTS & THE TENTH AMENDMENT
:|
:|. . . The great national debate continued unabated as the
:|confederationalist school caused another kind of impasse, as many States
:|made their demands for a Bill of Rights known. Many agreed to ratify the
:|Constitution with the provision that a Bill of Rights would be attached
:|with all due haste after its ratification. There was some that insisted
:|that it not be ratified without it, but those who had toiled over its
:|drafting were convincing in their protests that they were not optimistic
:|about a second convention being successful. The first had barely escaped an
:|impasse. So the Constitution was ratified with the understanding that a
:|Bill of Rights would be submitted for ratification immediately afterwards.
:|The Preamble to the Bill of Rights reflects this demand, in much softer
:|
:|"The conventions of a number of the States having at the time of their
:|adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent
:|misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and
:|restrictive clauses should be added..."
:|
:|Some States even went so far as to include their right to secede from the
:|Union in their ratifying documents. This could not be easily denied,
:|especially at the time, and it sent a clear message to the new Congress - a
:|Bill of Rights or face the secession of States from the "more perfect
:|union", the shortest lived union of its kind in all time. Some were opposed
:|to creating such a Bill, but political expediency won the day and a Bill of
:|Rights was produced that satisfied many of the demands of the
:|confederationalist school. Of particular note was the Tenth Amendment that
:|
:|"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
:|prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or
:|to the people."
:|
:|The Tenth Amendment is a more generally worded version of reserved rights
:|of the State governments that is found in Article II of the Articles of
:|Confederation. What was not included in Article II are any references to
:|the people, which reflects what the ratifiers of the Constitution had come
:|to believe was the nature of the new Constitutional Federalism.
:|http://www.ktas.org/confed2.htm
:|**********************************************************
:|
:|THERE HAVE BEEN ATTEMPTS TO UNDERMINE WHAT
:|THE FOUNDERS PASSED BY ADDING THE WORD EXPRESSLY
:|
:|
:|
:|
:|OPENING A SECOND FRONT
:|PETE DU PONT*
:|http://www.ncpa.org/oped/dupont/10am.html
:|
:|Perhaps it is the structure of the Constitution that has enabled the
:|federal judiciary to run roughshod over the Tenth Amendment. As one
:|commentator has observed, "whatever the Founders' intentions, the rules
:|they wrote are skewed in favor of national power."9
:|
:|
:|A plan for a sustained devolution of power from centralized government
:|might be accomplished through three mechanisms: a federalism statute; a
:|federal statute narrowing the jurisdiction of the federal courts, and a
:|constitutional amendment further clarifying the Tenth Amendment itself.
:|
:|A Federalism Statute. The most effective way to focus the federal
:|judiciary's attention on the importance of the Tenth Amendment, and to make
:|sure that the federalist structure of government it commands is reinstated,
:|is to force such ideas on the federal judiciary using congressional powers.
:|A federalism statute with the purpose of both instructing the federal
:|courts and empowering state governments would contain half a dozen
:|elements, each of which is intended to promote a greater recognition of
:|state and local governments' rights and to codify the intentions of
:|Congress for its future role vis-a-vis the States.
:|
:|First, the statute should contain a statement of principles to guide the
:|judiciary in the application of the Tenth Amendment. Justice Thomas'
:|dissent in the Term Limits case provides them:25
:|
:| * the federal government enjoys no authority beyond what the
:|Constitution confers -- its powers are limited and enumerated;
:|
:| * the States can exercise all powers that the Constitution does not
:|withhold from them; and
:|
:|* where the Constitution is silent about the exercise of a power, the
:|federal government lacks it and the States enjoy it.
:|
:|
:|In addition to a statement of principles, the statute should state that the
:|Tenth Amendment is intended to provide substantive limits on Congress'
:|power; that the States need not rely solely on the political process for
:|protection against burdensome Congressional exercise; and that the
:|protections afforded the States by the Tenth Amendment should be enforced
:|by the judiciary when Congress oversteps its boundaries and infringes on
:|state sovereignty. The U.S. Supreme Court has not abandoned these concepts
:|entirely, as indicated by its 1992 decision in New York v. United States,26
:|in which the Court struck down a portion of The Low Level Radioactive Waste
:|Policy Amendments Act of 198527 as an impermissible Congressional mandate
:|for states to regulate their citizens. But a codification of these
:|principles is an important step in strengthening Tenth Amendment viability
:|in the eyes of the courts.
:|
:|Finally, the statute should follow with four specific statements of
:|Congressional self-limitation:28
:|1. A statement that there shall be no preemption of state and local
:|authority unless Congress expressly declares its intent to do so. This
:|"clear statement" requirement in areas where Congress may be impeding state
:|powers is important to the concept of political accountability. Only with
:|full and accurate understanding of both who is making decisions and what
:|decisions have been made can the people in a democracy make an informed
:|decision as to the policies they desire to be implemented and who shall
:|represent them in carrying out those policies.29
:|
:|2. A statement that all federal laws and administrative regulations issued
:|pursuant thereto shall not be interpreted by the courts to infringe in any
:|material way upon the authority and capacity of state and local governments
:|to perform their basic and traditional functions, unless expresslydeclared
:|by Congress.
:|
:|3. A provision prohibiting Congress from imposing conditions on federal
:|grants unless such conditions are expressly stated, are reasonable, and
:|have a direct relationship to the program being funded. This provision goes
:|further than the Court would have allowed in the New York v. United States
:|case, in which the Court acknowledged that conditions attached to the
:|receipt of federal funds must "bear some relationship to the purpose of the
:|federal spending . . . ."30
:|
:|
:|4. A limitation on federal mandates, drawn from the "Headlee amendment"
:|approved in Michigan to that state's constitution.31 Such an amendment
:|would restrict the federal government from mandating programs to state and
:|local governments without appropriating the money necessary to comply with
:|the mandates. Unfunded mandates undermine political accountability, by
:|placing the selection of policies in Washington and the execution of them
:|in state capitals.
:|
:|A Federal Statute Narrowing the Jurisdiction of the Federal Courts. Further
:|Congressional action in support of a federalist system of government could
:|be achieved by utilizing the "Exceptions Clause" of Article III of the
:|Constitution to remove jurisdiction from the federal courts on certain
:|federalism issues.32 Although rarely invoked, the power of Congress to
:|limit the jurisdiction of federal courts is well established.33 For
:|example, in 1932 Congress passed and President Hoover signed the Norris
:|LaGuardia Anti Injunction Act34 utilizing Article III to restrict the
:|ability of federal courts to intervene in labor strikes.
:|
:|The Supreme Court, in Lauf v. E. G. Shinner & Co., upheld this attempt by
:|Congress to limit the jurisdiction of the federal courts, holding that
:|"[t]here can be no question of the power of Congress to define and limit
:|the jurisdiction of the inferior courts of the United States." 35
:|
:|As Chief Justice Harlan F. Stone stated in Lockerty v. Phillips:36 "The
:|Congressional power to ordain and establish inferior courts includes the
:|power of investing them with jurisdiction either limited, concurrent, or
:|exclusive, and of withholding jurisdiction from them in the exact degrees
:|and character which to Congress may seem proper for the public good."
:|
:|These constitutional provisions can serve as the foundation of a statute to
:|remove from the federal courts the power to review matters left to the
:|States by the Constitution and the Tenth Amendment. While the drafting of a
:|federal statute to narrow federal court jurisdiction would require careful
:|thought, its objectives are clear: to restore state power, as envisioned by
:|the Constitution, over a wide range of issues, including state and local
:|taxation; the terms of employment of state and local governmental
:|employees; educational standards, funding and transportation; state
:|welfare, housing and transportation matters; the drinking age; abortion;
:|local commerce; and so forth.
:|
:|
:|An "Exceptions Clause" statute to remove the power of the federal courts
:|over school bussing might read: "No court of the United States, as herein
:|defined, shall have jurisdiction to issue any order in a case involving or
:|growing out of a dispute involving the transportation of students to
:|achieve a racial balance in schools or classrooms; nor shall any order
:|regarding the transportation of students to achieve a racial balance in
:|schools or classrooms be issued contrary to the public policy declared in
:|this Act."
:|
:|A Constitutional Amendment. Although more difficult to achieve,
:|Constitutional amendments offer another viable method of restoring and
:|strengthening federalist principles. In fact, to settle the issue of
:|federalism with some degree of finality, a Constitutional amendment would
:|be the most appropriate solution. The most direct approach would be to
:|enact a constitutional amendment to clarify the Tenth Amendment, and while
:|I do not offer the following as draft language of a constitutional
:|amendment, it does convey the spirit of what needs to be enacted: "The
:|several states and the people shall have all powers not expressly delegated
:|herein to the federal government or which are directly necessary to, and
:|inseparable from, such express powers, whether such powers existed prior
:|to, or were created after, the ratification of this Constitution; and the
:|federal government shall have only those powers as are expresslyenumerated
:|herein or which are directly necessary to, and inseparable from, such
:|express powers."
:|
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:

The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm

American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm

The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html

[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]

HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/

***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote

"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"

That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.

It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.

*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
N***@Click.com
2008-08-29 13:23:51 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 08:02:56 -0400, buckeye
Post by buckeye
:|>:|WRT the US, take a look at Amendment X for further details.
Your lack of reply or inability to reply to the following has been noted
Tell us why, again---one should respond to a unilateral
"interpretation" of constitutional law?
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