:|> > Thus "Separation of Church and State" can hardly be called a law or a
:|> > precise statement of a priciple. It's a metaphor.
:|>
:|> It seems to me "Separation of Church and State" is not metaphor, "wall"
:|> on the other hand is. So a "wall of separation" is metaphorical but the
:|> concept behind the metaphor, "Separation of Church and State", is not.
:|> So, this is a precise statement of principle.
:|>
:|> He is a fast running deer. A metaphor. "He runs fast" is not.
:|
:|Dear ZirconX
:|
:|O.K., and thanks for the reply. But how precise a statement of
:|principle is it?
:|
:|Id think that the precise meaning of Separation of Church and State
:|would be that a church, or religion in general, must not attempt to
:|influence governmental action.
Your definition is incorrect
But don't take my word for it. Let's see what "an expert" had to say on
the matter.
Madison's vetoes: Some of The First Official Meanings Assigned to The
Establishment Clause
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/madvetos.htm
and
************************************************************
James Madison on Separation of Church and State
Direct references to separation to be found in the writings of James
Madison
----------------------------------------
OCTOBER 1, 1803
Notes for annual message, Oct. 17, 1803: alterations and additions, etc [1]
(3) after "assure"-are proposed "in due season, and under prudent
arrangements, important aids to our Treasury, as well as," an ample etc.
Quere: if the two or three succeeding paragraphs be not more
adapted to the separate and subsequent communication, if adopted as above
suggested.
(4) For the first sentence, may be substituted "In the territory between
the Mississippi and the Ohio another valuable acquisition has been made by
a treaty etc."[3.] As it stands, it does not sufficiently distinguish the
nature of the one acquisition from that of the other, and seems to imply
that the acquisition from France was wholly on the other side of the
Mississippi
May it not be as well to omit the detail of the stipulated
considerations, and particularly that of the Roman Catholic Pastor. The
jealousy of some may see in it a principle, not according with the
exemption of Religion from Civil power. In the Indian Treaty it will be
less noticed than in a President's speech.[4.]
FOOTNOTES:
[1.] For TJ's third annual message to Congress, Oct. 17, 1803, see Ford,
VIII, pp. 266-7)
[3.] TI's message announced the acquisition of territory by treaty from the
Kaskaskia Indians; see
Ford, VIII, pp. 269-70.
[4.] TJ accepted JM's suggestion to omit any discussion of Indian treaty
requirements to maintain a Roman Catholic priest, leaving the stipulations
in the treaty to "the competence of both
houses.... as soon as the senate shall have advised its ratification"; see
ibid.
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: James Madison to Thomas Jefferson, Washington, Oct.
1, 1803, Notes for annual message, Oct. 17, 1803: alterations and
additions, etc.[1.],
The Republic of Letters, the Correspondence between Thomas Jefferson and
James Madison, 1776-1826, Edited by James Morton Smith, Vol. II, 1790
-1804, W. W. Norton & Company, New York, London, (1995) pp 1297-98)
---------------------------------------------------
JUNE 3, 1811
"To the Baptist Churches on Neal's Greek on Black Creek, North Carolina I
have received, fellow-citizens, your address, approving my objection to the
Bill containing a grant of public land to the Baptist Church at Salem
Meeting House, Mississippi Territory. Having always regarded the practical
distinction between Religion and Civil Government as essential to the
purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States,
I could not have other wise discharged my duty on the
occasion which presented itself"
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Letter to Baptist Churches in North Carolina, June
3, 1811. Letters And Other Writings of James Madison Fourth President Of
The United States In Four Volumes Published By the Order Of Congress,
Vol..II, J. B. Lippincott & Co., Philadelphia, (1865) pp 511-512)
-----------------------------------------------------------
MARCH 2, 1819
"The civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated
hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability, and performs its functions
with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of
the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly
increased by the total separation of the church from the State."
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Excert of a letter to Robert Walsh from James
Madison. MARCH 2, 1819 Letters and Other writings of James Madison, in
Four Volumes, Published by Order of Congress. VOL. III, J. B. Lippincott &
Co. Philadelphia, (1865), pp 121-126. James Madison on Religious Liberty,
Robert S.Alley, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, N.Y. (1985) pp 82-83)
----------------------------------------------------------
1817-1833
"Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and Gov't in the
Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by
Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents' already furnished
in their short history"
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Excerpt from Madison's Detached Memoranda. This
document was discovered in 1946 among the papers of William Cabell Rives, a
biographer of Madison. Scholars date these observations in Madison's hand
sometime between 1817 and 1832. The entire document was published by
Elizabeth Fleet in the William and Mary Quarterly of October 1946.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
JULY 10, 1822
"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation
between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have
no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done,
in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity
the less they are mixed together"
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Excerpt of letter to Edward Livingston from James
Madison, July 10, 1822. Letters and Other writings of James Madison, in
Four Volumes, Published by Order of Congress. VOL. III, J. B. Lippincott &
Co. Philadelphia, (1865), pp 273-276. James Madison on Religious Liberty,
Robert S.Alley, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, N.Y. (1985) pp 82-83)
--------------------------------------------------------------
SEPTEMBER 1833
"I must admit moreover that it may not be easy, in every possible case, to
trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the civil
authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on
unessential points. The tendency to a usurpation on one side or the other
or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them will be best guarded
against by entire abstinence of the government from interference in any way
whatever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order and protecting
each sect against trespasses on its legal rights by others".
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Letter written by James Madison to Rev. Jasper
Adams, September, 1833.Writings of James Madison, edited by Gaillard Hunt,
[not sure what the volume number is but have enough information presented
here to locate the letter] microform Z1236.L53, pp 484-488. )
*********************************************************************
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/jaspltrs.htm
[excerpt]
September, 1833
Montpelier September 1833. private
Dear Sir,
I received in due time, the printed copy of your convention sermon on
the relation of Christianity to civil government, with a manuscript request
of my opinion on the subject.
There appears to be in the nature of man, what ensures his belief in an
invisible cause of his present existence, & an anticipation of his future
existence. Hence the propensities & susceptibilities, in the case of
religion, which, with a few doubtful or individual exceptions, have
prevailed throughout the world.
Waiving the rights of conscience, not included in the surrender implied
by the social state, & more or less invaded by all Religious
establishments, the simple question to be decided, is whether a support of
the best & purest religion, the Christian Religion itself, ought not, so
far at least as pecuniary means are involved, to be provided for by the
Government, rather than be left to the voluntary provisions of those who
profess it. And on this question, experience will be an admitted umpire the
more adequate as the connexion between government & Religion, has existed
in such various degrees & forms, & now can be compared with examples where
the connexion has been entirely dissolved.
In the papal system, Government & Religion are in a manner
consolidated; & that is found to be the worst of Governments.
In most of the governments of the old world, the legal establishment of
a particular religion without any, or with very little toleration of
others, makes a part [pact?] of the political & civil organization; & there
are few of the most enlightened judges who will maintain that the system
has been favourable either to Religion or to government.
Until Holland ventured on the experiment of combining a liberal
toleration, with the establishment of a particular creed, it was taken for
granted that an exclusive establishment was essential, and notwithstanding
the light thrown on the subject by that experiment, the prevailing opinion
in Europe, England not excepted, has been, that Religion could not be
preserved without the support of Government, nor Government be supported
without an established Religion, that there must be at least an alliance of
some sort between them.
It remained for North America to bring the great & interesting subject
to a fair, & finally, to a decisive test.
In the colonial state of this country, there were five examples, Rhode
Island, New Jersey Pennsylvania & Delaware, & the greater part of New York,
where there were no religious establishments, the support of Religion being
left to the voluntary associations & contributions of individuals; &
certainly the religious condition of those colonies, will well bear a
comparison, with that where establishments existed.
As it may be suggested, that experiments made in colonies more or less
under the controul of a foreign government had not the full scope necessary
to display their tendency, it is fortunate that the appeal can now be made
to their effects, under a compleat exemption from any such controul.
It is true that the New England States have not discontinued
establishments of Religion formed under very peculiar circumstances; but
they have by successive relaxations, advanced towards the prevailing
example; & without any evidence of disadvantage, either to Religion or to
good government.
And if we turn to the Southern States where there was previous to the
Declaration of Independence, a legal provision for the support of Religion;
& since that event, a surrender of it to a spontaneous support of the
people, it may be said that the difference amounts nearly to a contrast, in
the greater purity & industry of the pastors & in the greater devotion of
their flocks, in the latter period than in the former. In Virginia, the
contrast is particularly striking to those whose memories can make the
comparison.
It will not be denied that causes other than the abolition of the legal
establishment of Religion are to be taken into view, in accounting for the
change in the religious character of the community. But the existing
character, distinguished as it is by its religious features, & the lapse of
time, now more than fifty years, since the legal support of Religion was
withdrawn, sufficiently prove, that it does not need the support of
Government. And it will scarcely be contended that government has suffered
by the exemption of Religion from its cognizance, or its pecuniary aid.
The apprehension of some seems to be, that Religion left entirely to
itself, may run into extravagances injurious both to Religion & social
order; but besides the question whether the interference of Government in
any form, would not be more likely to increase than controul the tendency,
it is a safe calculation that in this, as in other cases of excessive
excitement, reason will gradually regain its ascendency. Great excitements
are less apt to be permanent than to vibrate to the opposite extreme.
Under another aspect of the subject, there may be less danger that
Religion, if left to itself, will suffer from a failure of the pecuniary
support applicable to it, than that an omission of the public authorities,
to limit the duration of the charters to Religious corporations, & the
amount of property acquirable by them, may lead to an injurious
accumulation of wealth from the lavish donations & bequests prompted by a
pious zeal or by an atoning remorse. Some monitory examples have already
appeared.
Whilst I thus frankly express my view of the subject presented in your
sermon, I must do you the justice to observe, that you have very ably
maintained yours. I must admit, moreover, that it may not be easy, in every
possible case, to trace the line of separation, between the rights of
Religion & the Civil authority, with such distinctness, as to avoid
collisions & doubts on unessential points. The tendency to a usurpation on
one side, or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between
them, will be best guarded against by an entire abstinence of the
Government from interference, in any way whatever, beyond the necessity of
preserving public order, & protecting each sect against trespasses on its
legal rights by others.
I owe you, Sir, an apology for the delay in complying with the request
of my opinion on the subject discussed in your sermon, if not also for the
brevity, & it may be thought, crudeness of the opinion itself. I must rest
the apology on my great age now in its 83' year, with more than the
ordinary infirmities, & especially on the effect of a chronic rheumatism,
combined with both, which makes my hands & fingers, as averse to the pen as
they are awkward in the use of it.
Be pleased to accept, Sir, a tender of my cordial & respectful
salutations.
James Madison.
[Adams's Notes, pages 12-15]
[end excerpt]
*******************************************************
followed by
Some Thoughts on Religion and Law
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/bthot-lr.htm"
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************