buckeye
2008-10-12 16:07:47 UTC
enemy of Marx said...
Remember it says in the constitution in big bold letters that church
and state should be seperate...........and I own a fleet of space
shuttles........and the moon is made out of spare ribs, yummy !!
[end quote]
[my comments]
In your effort to be witty and sarcastic you actually shot yourself in the
foot by stating a truth without realizing it. That truth:
The unamended constitution separated church and state.
The Constitution does separate church and state at a time when national
documents of many other western nations and most U S state constitutions
actually continued with language continued unions between church and state.
Where and how did the US Constitution separate church and state:
Let me show and count the ways
(1) The actual separation language (as separation clause):
US CONSTITUTION, ARTICLE 6, PARAGRAPH (section) 3 (emphasis **** added)
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the
several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both
of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or
Affirmation, to support this Constitution; (****) but no religious Test
shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust
under the United States.(****)
Based on your original comments I don't expect that you would ever
understand the importance, the impact of those few words in their own time
period. In places that had established churches such as most European
counties, and most U S states, office holders and those who held positions
of public trust took oaths to defend the church, they were the defenders of
the state and of the church. That is how church and state unions were
maintained.
(2) The matter of oaths
oath of office for the President of the United States is specified in the
U.S. Constitution (Article II, Section 1):
I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the
Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my
Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United
States.
The oath may be sworn or affirmed.
Note the above, the oath may be sworn or affirmed.
Affirmed is a non religious form of taking an oath.
That is another example of that separation of church and state
Did you know that the First Federal Congress in the first session of the
First Federal Congress had actually included "so help me God" in the oaths
of office but they ultimately removed those words when they approved the
final versions see below in a article I wrote in either 2004 or 2005.
CONGRESS REMOVED GOD -- A LESSON IN "ORIGINAL INTENT
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/meetup/Congremv.pdf
(3) The reinforcement of the separation of church and state that was
embodied in the unamended constitution:
U S CONSTITUTION, 1ST AMENDMENT
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
Now I would finish by asking you to quote any language from the U S
Constitution that gives to religion any power, authority, any offices, any
trappings, any rights, any recognition, any position in or at the table of
government. Any language that requires any person in the US to attend any
religious functions, to support religion, to defend religion, to be of any
particular religion, or even to be religious.
You won't find any such language in the US Constitution, though you can
find such language in many national documents of other western countries of
the time and in many US state constitutions.
Why can't you find such in the US Constitution? Because that document
separate the two, separate church (religion) and state (government) or you
could say separated state (government) and church (religion).
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
Remember it says in the constitution in big bold letters that church
and state should be seperate...........and I own a fleet of space
shuttles........and the moon is made out of spare ribs, yummy !!
[end quote]
[my comments]
In your effort to be witty and sarcastic you actually shot yourself in the
foot by stating a truth without realizing it. That truth:
The unamended constitution separated church and state.
The Constitution does separate church and state at a time when national
documents of many other western nations and most U S state constitutions
actually continued with language continued unions between church and state.
Where and how did the US Constitution separate church and state:
Let me show and count the ways
(1) The actual separation language (as separation clause):
US CONSTITUTION, ARTICLE 6, PARAGRAPH (section) 3 (emphasis **** added)
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the
several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both
of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or
Affirmation, to support this Constitution; (****) but no religious Test
shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust
under the United States.(****)
Based on your original comments I don't expect that you would ever
understand the importance, the impact of those few words in their own time
period. In places that had established churches such as most European
counties, and most U S states, office holders and those who held positions
of public trust took oaths to defend the church, they were the defenders of
the state and of the church. That is how church and state unions were
maintained.
(2) The matter of oaths
oath of office for the President of the United States is specified in the
U.S. Constitution (Article II, Section 1):
I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the
Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my
Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United
States.
The oath may be sworn or affirmed.
Note the above, the oath may be sworn or affirmed.
Affirmed is a non religious form of taking an oath.
That is another example of that separation of church and state
Did you know that the First Federal Congress in the first session of the
First Federal Congress had actually included "so help me God" in the oaths
of office but they ultimately removed those words when they approved the
final versions see below in a article I wrote in either 2004 or 2005.
CONGRESS REMOVED GOD -- A LESSON IN "ORIGINAL INTENT
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/meetup/Congremv.pdf
(3) The reinforcement of the separation of church and state that was
embodied in the unamended constitution:
U S CONSTITUTION, 1ST AMENDMENT
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
Now I would finish by asking you to quote any language from the U S
Constitution that gives to religion any power, authority, any offices, any
trappings, any rights, any recognition, any position in or at the table of
government. Any language that requires any person in the US to attend any
religious functions, to support religion, to defend religion, to be of any
particular religion, or even to be religious.
You won't find any such language in the US Constitution, though you can
find such language in many national documents of other western countries of
the time and in many US state constitutions.
Why can't you find such in the US Constitution? Because that document
separate the two, separate church (religion) and state (government) or you
could say separated state (government) and church (religion).
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************